New Interview about Mutual Aid with In These Times

Clara Liang recently interviewed me for In These Times.

ILLUSTRATION BY GALINE TUMASYAN

Amid the cat­a­stro­phe of the pan­dem­ic, cli­mate emer­gency and racist state vio­lence, mutu­al aid has explod­ed. Ordi­nary peo­ple around the globe, from Seat­tle to Nige­ria, are find­ing ways to sup­port each oth­er when the gov­ern­ment won’t.Mutual aid isn’t just that we help each other. We help each other based on a shared recognition that the systems aren’t delivering and are actually making things worse. We’re simultaneously building a movement to address the root causes of the crisis we’re in.

Activist and law pro­fes­sor Dean Spade’s time­ly new book, Mutu­al Aid: Build­ing Sol­i­dar­i­ty Dur­ing This Cri­sis (And the Next)is a guide for endur­ing dis­as­ter by tak­ing mat­ters into our own hands. It’s at once a the­o­ry, his­to­ry and step-by-step man­u­al on mutu­al aid, which Spade defines as the sur­vival work done in con­junc­tion with social move­ments demand­ing trans­for­ma­tive change. The book out­lines how we can rad­i­cal­ly redis­trib­ute care and well­be­ing, avoid com­mon orga­niz­ing pit­falls and, ulti­mate­ly, ​“heal our­selves and the world.”

Spade’s mes­sage is philo­soph­i­cal and urgent. He argues that if we don’t fun­da­men­tal­ly reimag­ine com­mu­ni­ty, gov­er­nance and pow­er, we will face (to put it blunt­ly) ​“inten­sive, uneven suf­fer­ing fol­lowed by species extinc­tion.” But the book is ulti­mate­ly hope­ful, not­ing how many times humans have sur­vived and remind­ing us that, for most of our his­to­ry, we didn’t live under exploita­tive cap­i­tal­ist conditions. 

In These Times spoke to Spade in ear­ly Octo­ber about the impor­tance of being ordi­nary, the pow­er of imag­i­na­tion, and more. Our con­ver­sa­tion has been edit­ed for length and clarity. 

Clara Liang: What’s the one thing you want peo­ple to walk away with after read­ing your book? 

Dean Spade: Mutu­al aid is some­thing every­one can do right now. It simul­ta­ne­ous­ly builds move­ments and address­es sur­vival con­di­tions. Peo­ple come to move­ments because they need some­thing that’s not being pro­vid­ed, or because they des­per­ate­ly want to imme­di­ate­ly help oth­er peo­ple who may be strug­gling. Mutu­al aid is the door­way in, and the more we can build mutu­al aid infra­struc­ture, the fiercer and stronger and more pow­er­ful our move­ments will become. 

Clara: You pro­vide a great his­to­ry of mutu­al aid, from the Black Pan­ther Party’s free break­fast pro­gram to Indige­nous anti­colo­nial projects. Mutu­al aid isn’t new. What new forms is it taking? 

Dean: Dur­ing a lot of dis­as­ters — storms, fires, floods — we get atten­tion to people’s mutu­al aid activ­i­ties. In the ​’60s and ​’70s, there was a lot of atten­tion brought to what the Black Pan­thers called sur­vival pro­grams, which took form in so many dif­fer­ent move­ments. In the fem­i­nist move­ment, for exam­ple, peo­ple were fig­ur­ing out how to do their own con­tra­cep­tion and abortions. 

Covid-19 real­ly lift­ed mutu­al aid to the sur­face, because Covid-19 is hap­pen­ing every­where, to every­one, where­as most fires, storms and floods hap­pen in par­tic­u­lar regions. These obsta­cles of not being able to get your gro­ceries or pick up your meds — it was hap­pen­ing all at once, everywhere. 

There’s been a sig­nif­i­cant set of shifts in left move­ments since the ​’60s and ​’70s, when move­ment orga­ni­za­tions doing pow­er­ful mutu­al aid work were orga­niz­ing them­selves in very hier­ar­chi­cal mod­els. The Black Pan­ther Par­ty is one, with its almost mil­i­taris­tic mod­el of cer­tain lead­ers on top. Those mod­els had real­ly big costs: They made it eas­i­er for the gov­ern­ment to infil­trate them and take out one leader; they often per­mit­ted more sex­u­al and gen­der vio­lence and hier­ar­chy inside groups. A lot of groups, from that time on, exper­i­ment­ed much more exten­sive­ly, often inspired by Latin Amer­i­can social move­ment orga­ni­za­tions, with more hor­i­zon­tal forms. 

Clara: What chal­lenges might the recent atten­tion to mutu­al aid bring?

Dean: A lot of media cov­er­age indi­cates a pret­ty thin under­stand­ing of mutu­al aid. One ten­den­cy I’ve seen is an attempt to say, ​“Mutu­al aid goes hand in hand with state inter­ven­tions.” Peo­ple will try to find exam­ples that sug­gest that mutu­al aid is not actu­al­ly oppo­si­tion­al to the sta­tus quo, is not actu­al­ly a threat to gov­ern­ment systems.

Sim­i­lar­ly, I found some cov­er­age dur­ing Hur­ri­cane Hugo [in 1989] say­ing, ​“Look at these peo­ple who are using their own boats to res­cue peo­ple. We don’t need state sup­port.” There’s a sort of right-wing read on mutu­al aid efforts that real­ly takes them out of con­text and tries to use them to push for elim­i­nat­ing state safe­ty infrastructure. 

Mutu­al aid isn’t just that we help each oth­er. We help each oth­er based on a shared recog­ni­tion that the sys­tems aren’t deliv­er­ing and are actu­al­ly mak­ing things worse. We’re simul­ta­ne­ous­ly build­ing a move­ment to address the root caus­es of the cri­sis we’re in. That’s real­ly dif­fer­ent from the char­i­ty mod­el, where some vol­un­teers occa­sion­al­ly give some peo­ple some stuff. 

Clara: Can you talk more about the rela­tion­ship between mutu­al aid and trans­form­ing the root con­di­tions — such as cap­i­tal­ism and racism — that are respon­si­ble for large-scale human suffering?

Dean: The oppo­si­tion has all the mon­ey and all the weapons. All we have is peo­ple pow­er. We need to build move­ments that aren’t based on try­ing to con­vince them to let go of the reins of pow­er. We need to build move­ments that have enough pow­er to throw a wrench in the way the sys­tems are now and to stop the things that are harm­ing peo­ple, for instance by defund­ing the police and stop­ping gas and oil com­pa­nies from fur­ther extraction. 

Mutu­al aid work inevitably becomes deeply inter­sec­tion­al, because people’s lives are inter­sec­tion­al. If we’re in a home­less encamp­ment doing direct work for peo­ple liv­ing there, we’re also join­ing the fight to defund the police because we see how the police harm the peo­ple in this encamp­ment, and we’re also show­ing up at the migrant jus­tice ral­ly to close the deten­tion cen­ter because we know and love peo­ple who were tak­en out of this encamp­ment and thrown into the deten­tion center. 

We don’t want to just keep try­ing to get help where there could nev­er be enough, we want to see change. It’s not rock­et sci­ence. Peo­ple wouldn’t be home­less if they had housing. 

Clara: The forces that keep the dis­tri­b­u­tion of pow­er and resources so unjust can feel insur­mount­able. You write that ​“things are real­ly ter­ri­fy­ing and enrag­ing right now, and feel­ing more rage, fear, sad­ness, grief, and despair may be appro­pri­ate.” How do you sus­tain hope and trust in the mutu­al aid process while also tun­ing into grief, rage and despair? 

Dean: In cap­i­tal­ism, we’re encour­aged to actu­al­ly be numb to our own pain and to oth­ers’ pain. And that is demo­bi­liz­ing. I think it’s mobi­liz­ing to be tuned into and car­ing about the harm and bru­tal­i­ty that is our cur­rent sys­tem. We are lit­er­al­ly fac­ing the end of human­i­ty because of cli­mate change. We are real­ly star­ing fas­cism in the face. We’re dip­ping into the next hor­ri­ble eco­nom­ic cri­sis. Peo­ple are dying, in huge num­bers, of Covid-19. There’s no way to not be affect­ed by that if you’re pay­ing atten­tion to suffering. 

I find that being in mutu­al aid groups with oth­er peo­ple who also are feel­ing that pain and urgency, and also try­ing to do things they think might reduce suf­fer­ing, is actu­al­ly my great­est relief. I hope to live out this incred­i­bly trans­for­ma­tive, dif­fi­cult peri­od engaged with peo­ple about things that they care about, even if it’s the last thing we do. 

It’s not about avoid­ing the pain; it’s about turn­ing toward the pain and engag­ing with prin­ci­ple, which I think is very de-numb­ing, and not easy, but prefer­able to the cap­i­tal­ist numb­ing pattern.

Clara: Toni Cade Bambara’s call to ​“make rev­o­lu­tion irre­sistible” comes up in your book. Who are some of your oth­er teachers?

Dean: Prob­a­bly the cen­tral intel­lec­tu­al tra­di­tion that has impact­ed me is the set of women of col­or fem­i­nists deeply invest­ed in prison abo­li­tion who cri­tiqued the idea that you can solve gen­der-based vio­lence through crim­i­nal­iza­tion. A lot of those thinkers — many of whom are includ­ed in the won­der­ful INCITE! antholo­gies like Col­or of Vio­lence and The Rev­o­lu­tion Will Not Be Fund­ed—named this trap that social move­ments are encour­aged to fall into, where we build non­prof­it orga­ni­za­tions that use elite strate­gies like pol­i­cy change and very depoliti­cized ser­vices, where we part­ner with the police and the mil­i­tary. Fem­i­nist women of col­or brought these deep cri­tiques of not only what’s wrong with that polit­i­cal agen­da and how it didn’t work out, but also what’s wrong with the ways it tells us to orga­nize and the way it eras­es mutu­al aid and oth­er fem­i­nized care labor.

I think a lot of my learn­ing has come through par­tic­i­pat­ing in grass­roots, unpaid mutu­al aid projects, and projects to stop prison expan­sion and jail expan­sion. Doing this work is how we get our pol­i­tics, how we know what’s real­ly going on, how we get an analy­sis of what it would mean to actu­al­ly dis­man­tle these sys­tems ver­sus get­ting duped into reforms that expand, legit­imize and sta­bi­lize the cur­rent system.

There are so many peo­ple, like Andrea Ritchie, who have been work­ing for decades. They do their work whether it’s pop­u­lar or not. To me, that rig­or and care and relent­less­ness in that work — they’ve taught me how I want to be. 

Clara: Mutu­al aid is often hard, bor­ing work: going to gro­cery stores, wait­ing in lines at wel­fare offices. Tell me about your con­vic­tion that we might ​“cul­ti­vate a desire to be beau­ti­ful­ly, exquis­ite­ly ordi­nary just like every­body else.”

Dean: I meet a lot of young peo­ple who say, ​“I want to make a dif­fer­ence in the world. I want to be an exec­u­tive direc­tor of a non­prof­it.” We’ve been told that lead­er­ship is about being impor­tant, excep­tion­al. That caus­es a lot of peo­ple to act cap­i­tal­ist, white suprema­cist and patri­ar­chal in our lead­er­ship styles, regard­less of our identity. 

Mutu­al aid sug­gests that the work to imme­di­ate­ly help some­body make sure they have a mask or hand san­i­tiz­er today is just as impor­tant as some­thing some­body is doing in your state capi­tol try­ing to close the deten­tion center.

When we show up with a lot of integri­ty, when we care about all the peo­ple around us, make offer­ings, and expect to make mis­takes and receive feed­back, the reward isn’t going to be some moment of fame or per­fec­tion. It’ll be the ongo­ing ups and downs of being con­nect­ed to oth­er people. 

Clara: How do you under­stand mutu­al aid in rela­tion to elec­toral pol­i­tics? Do you view vot­ing as harm reduc­tion, or as anti­thet­i­cal to mutu­al aid’s belief in eman­ci­pa­tion from bro­ken systems?

Dean: Regard­less of what hap­pens in this elec­tion, we’re going to need mutu­al aid more than we ever have. Our polit­i­cal cul­ture tells us that vot­ing is the most impor­tant polit­i­cal act. It real­ly tries to quell dis­sent and mobi­liza­tion by telling us that this is the only place to act, in this order­ly, state-approved fash­ion. There are sec­ondary ones, like it’s okay to post on social media, it’s okay to go to a per­mit­ted march once in a while. There are approved ways of dis­sent­ing, and then there are broad­ly dis­ap­proved of, and crim­i­nal­ized, ways. 

I’m not an abso­lutist. I think there’s room for almost every kind of polit­i­cal action. So, absolute­ly vote, but I hope that’s not the begin­ning and end of anybody’s polit­i­cal activ­i­ty. It’s real­ly impor­tant for peo­ple to know that they can, in addi­tion, do more sat­is­fy­ing, more direct­ly impact­ful polit­i­cal activ­i­ty with peo­ple, and break their own iso­la­tion, and feel a sense of purpose.

Clara: You note that cap­i­tal­ism makes it dif­fi­cult for peo­ple to imag­ine sur­viv­ing any oth­er way, even though humans long lived out­side this sys­tem. Mutu­al aid, you write, is ​“inher­ent­ly anti­au­thor­i­tar­i­an, demon­strat­ing how we can do things togeth­er in ways we were told not to imag­ine.” Can you indulge for a moment in your most free, lim­it­less imag­in­ing of what could be?

Dean: I can imag­ine a world based on the prin­ci­ples of mutu­al aid in which every­body has what they need to sur­vive, and peo­ple are work­ing on repro­duc­ing the means of sur­vival not because of a coer­cive sys­tem where they’ll die or be crim­i­nal­ized if they don’t have a wage job, but instead because of the plea­sure of grow­ing food that oth­er peo­ple will eat, and mak­ing a sew­er sys­tem that we’re all using. Peo­ple doing the work because they want every­one to have these things, not because if they didn’t do that work, they would starve. A key piece is this deep desire to share well-being with all, and make sure every­body has what they need and nobody has a lot more than they need.

I could see peo­ple liv­ing in a soci­ety where they’ve grown a lot of capac­i­ty to not avoid con­flicts but instead have gen­er­a­tive con­flict, give and receive feed­back, and be aware of their own emo­tion­al landscapes. 

I can absolute­ly imag­ine a world with­out bor­ders, pris­ons or wars. A world in which we’re not pro­duc­ing all of these weapons, where peo­ple aren’t using them on each oth­er or threat­en­ing each oth­er with them. In most of the his­to­ry of the world, there weren’t mil­i­ta­rized bor­ders, there weren’t mil­lions of peo­ple in cages. 

I can imag­ine a world in which Indige­nous peo­ple are restored sov­er­eign­ty over the lands that have been tak­en from them, and deep process­es of repair and care and con­nec­tion are led by them — under their terms — to dis­man­tle the set­tler state and set­tler relations. 

I can imag­ine a world where we don’t cen­ter fos­sil fuels. We can change what we’re using to trans­port our­selves, to pro­duce our food. 

There would be a lot of col­lec­tive self-gov­er­nance on lots of dif­fer­ent scales at the same time, com­plex nets of coor­di­na­tion so that the peo­ple grow­ing food are con­nect­ed to the peo­ple eat­ing food, and it’s all con­nect­ed to peo­ple doing healthcare. 

Peo­ple are real­ly afraid of this world I’m talk­ing about — that there wouldn’t be med­i­cine or inno­va­tion or tech­nol­o­gy. I just real­ly don’t believe that. That’s one of the lies of capitalism.